As a guy who was never married, has no kids, works from home, and does all the cooking and cleaning while my girlfriend on her days off sleeps and scrolls reddit endlessly on the couch, I'm fairly tired of being underappreciated as well. Marriage and kids aren't the only form of emotional responsibility. But I think that everyone's free to make their own decisions, and I'm pretty sure we make a positive decision to stay together every day or else we don't.
Is some of that a "take it or leave it" attitude? Yes, but both people have that in every relationship, or else they should.
I think if you're in a relationship that's primarily defined by what you don't want to do, you should get out of it as quickly as possible.
If this resentment has persisted for a long time and communication hasn’t improved the situation why stay in the relationship? It seems like your advise applies to you as well as GP.
Sure, I mean, I'm only writing to say that we all have stuff we do for people and it's not always picture perfect, it's a balance. In my situation, she's also my best friend, the sex is great, and we like going to a lot of concerts.
If I ever find myself writing extended essays about why I'd love to have a wife like me, and I truly hated making her breakfast, I would bail.
As a single guy living by myself and have no intention of getting married or having kids, the day to day tasks are much simpler. Also it becomes more simple if you have money to afford help like having someone once a week clean up the whole apartment.
So it seems like what you want is not a wife, but money
Here’s a thesis: the feminism of the 70s was a reaction specifically to the trends of the 60s. You can see this here in 2 places: the double standard and easy acceptance of male infidelity; and attitudes to divorce.
There is an element of this essay that seems a bit short on the whole rights-and-responsibilities concept that should be highlighted.
On the one hand, she's right that most people would want a wife and she gives a reasonable overview of why. That is why men generally want wives. The wives bring a lot to the table.
If you do the same exercise for husbands, generally most people would also want husbands. The men also bring a lot to the table. Relationships happen when everyone benefits.
Now if she's coming at this from a place of mutual joy and satisfaction then this essay is a pretty good summary of what men are probably looking for in a wife. But I see "instant classic ... [in a] feminist magazine" get the impression that it is probably being interpreted as wives shouldn't have to bring all the things men want to a relationship.
Yeah sure. I can agree with that. They shouldn't have to. Indeed, they don't. As we've discovered in the 1970s-2025 window they can renegotiate the social contract to a large extent. But I'm not really on board with what contribution the essay is supposed to have had beyond highlighting things what men like in women.
The essay there weaponizes sarcasm + the emotional experience of that reality to hit the reader over the head with, in an attempt to break their script and force them to a change in perspective.
This - evidently - worked and works, but there are trade-offs to it.
Specifically, it is zero-sum, which eventually led to the gender war we have now.
Since the defenses have been (for the most part) broken down, a modern pivot would likely move towards more unification again, I guess.
The social mechanics to decouple woman permanently from reproduction are already in the making. Incubators and AI educators and people can have children with a company, the rest of the social problems (the social network harem effect) then go out the window. If you need to be a millionaire to have a conventional family, tradition is out, corporate cloning is in. The working alternative to religious fundamentalism.
While I support equality between biological sexes this had some ill effects.
Giving birth is a woman job. Breastfeeding is a woman's job. Replacing breast milk with something else might be one of the causes of allergies and other ill effects (I'm guessing).
To me it looks like women want to be compensated for the unpaid work of birthing children and taking care of them during their upbringing.
No one fucking likes unpaid work. It's not right.
For me this if the current feminism and I do support it.
This comment was dead on arrival, but I've vouched for it, because I believe it's interesting.
I do not believe the conspiracy part, but I do also believe that this decoupling will happen eventually.
It seems like the logical conclusion of the trajectory we're on. Leaving biological reality behind in the pursuit of individualism.
It might be a good thing, but we might also find that we were not ready for the total freedom from said biological reality.
But that is to be said about a lot of things, SV is pushing towards.
But maybe we will also see stuff crashing down in the near-ish future, and then, pondering about the "end of biological reality" will seem like unreal hallucinations.
___
Hmm.
The LLM I've been feeding this comment section pointed me at the Universe 25 Experiment. I've never heard of that before.
In a similar vein to this essay, I want to be a father so badly. I love being a woman, and am satisfied with the machinery I have been given.
But having to be the incubator means I am saddle with the full brunt of the responsibility and expectation once the baby is born. I go from woman to mother. And with it comes judgement and duties, and goes freedom and care-free living.
I want to be a father so I can raise a kid, provide, teach and impart to a little slice of my own genes. And be praised whenever a diaper is changed or I fetch the little one from school.
But alas I was born with a womb, a sexual attraction to men, and the drive for a high-impact career. The three seem incompatible.
I just love how you assume being a father is easy. Grass is always greener and what not.
Being a father comes with its own responsibilities and subjection to judgment by the community. The phrase "deadbeat dad" is in the common vernacular, but you rarely hear about "deadbeat moms" (trust me, they exist).
> full brunt of the responsibility and expectation once the baby is born
This is simply not true. If this were true, child support laws and requirements would not exist.
You actually don't have full responsibility once the child is born. Even then, you can give the child up for adoption.
You do have something that men don't have, which is full control over whether a birth happens in the first place. Men don't have this.
I'm a father, have had sole custody of my five children for 8 nearly 9 years.
Both parents have the same responsibility to their kids, to do the absolute best for them, and we should fight back against outdated cultural norms that assume that mothers are the default parent, and that fathers "babysit" their own children.
This can be resolved by choosing a better man as a partner, one that is supportive and willing to be an equal partner. I understand finding someone that fulfills that as well as this person also being someone you're attracted to and compatible with socially is challenging, but I have seen relationships like this before so I know it's possible.
This cannot be resolved, you will not be an equal parent or even close to it the first few months, maybe even over a year. Breast feeding and various dependencies that develop (like that the kid wants to fall asleep at the breast) mean that most of the effort of parenting early falls on the mother.
And then there's the fact of life that other stuff needs to be taken care of. Trash still needs to be taken out, groceries bought, etc further pushing you towards the stuff outside of parenting.
This can hardly be resolved with money. We could hire nannies, get the top nursery, whatever. It would even be cost-efficient if it let mom work. However, the kid doesn't want to be without his mom and much more so she doesn't want to be away from him for a longer time! Even with me 4-6 hours is about it.
My wife has some severe challenges (hormonal and otherwise), so I have changed almost all diapers, and work part time/nights as a software developer purely for the fact that I need to be available to take our child regularly throughout the day, at one point I was full time childcare and job. My wife has a free pass to go on day trips and climbing excursions for her mental health. I guess the point is, to find someone who genuinely wants to help and participate, and find something that works for you. It's such a huge part of life, it's important to get the balance right. That's a difficult thing to do, but knowing what someone's core beliefs about family, responsibility, and expectations is important.
This belittles men, especially those who are single fathers and have similar career struggles as single mothers. Our perceptions create our reality and if we constantly think we've been given the short end of the stick then we'll look for evidence around us to prove this perception. There's a whole other side to motherhood that comes with fulfillment, meaning, and growth.
Does it, or is is a complaint about the patriarchy? I don't see any part of the OP comment that seems misandrist or reducing the role that engaged fathers play.
The assumption that being a father is easy denies the lived experience of fathers. How would she know whether being a father is easy or not? She's never been one.
She would know that in her society there are different sets of expectations about fathers than mothers, and that seems to be what she's aiming at? Are you sure you're not over-reading into what she actually wrote?
I think what you seek is a great companion to truly share the responsibilities with.
I am a father of two wonderful kids. I do more drop offs than my wife, I changed just as many diapers / handled sick care, I handle more of the nighttime routines and give each kid a 10 minute back rub every night while my wife lays in bed (9 years and counting for my eldest) and cook more than my wife. She does clean more than me, folds more laundry, prepare their lunches, organizes their after care and play dates and babysitters more. She also worked harder when the kids were 0-6 months than I did for sure.
I begrudge her for none of what I do “more”. It’s hard work but I love being with my kids and my wife works her tail off running her business. We have a great balance and I feel lucky. And yet life isn’t perfect and, it being hard work, it’s easy to point fingers instead of focusing on gratitude and real world trade offs (two things the paper and feminism generally lack).
I think it comes down to ambitions. Do you have ambitions to be financially successful, to have a wonderful career or marriage or to be a great parent? Although feminists are loathe to talk of hierarchies for obvious reasons, they nevertheless have their use. So let me hierarchize: I truly have greater ambitions around being a parent than anything else. We also happen to be financially successful (more so because of my wife) but she has greater ambitions around that than I do.
So anyway, I think we are the counter example to your last statement and show that it can be compatible. And many of my friends are similar.
What an interesting comment. Do you feel that the aspects of fatherhood that you are most jealous of are relatively lower expectations of time commitment directly watching after the kid and encouragement of professional success?
And if it’s not too prying to ask what are your ideal expectations for your partner? How important is their career? What is their ideal role in childrearing?
I don't know why you couldn't be a great father. In the sense you're talking about. I know it would come with the physical baggage (or not, if you adopt?)
A friend I love dearly is raising a 3 year old little girl... she never expected to get pregnant at 42... and she is as much a father as a mother. She lets the girl play in mud puddles while other parents stare, and collect bugs, and go look at art in museums. Absolutely unconcerned with how the world thinks a mom with a 3 year old should behave.
[edit] it did slow my friend's career over the past few years, but, didn't kill it. And she's back to it now. But more importantly... I've never seen anyone love anything as much, even when she says she's frustrated out of her mind. And me, not having kids, I'm a little jealous of that feeling.
[edit2] I'm an uncle, so maybe that's more my speed ... just jumping in for the easy fun parts and teaching the kids new things and being the visiting fireman. But that's not what being a father is, at least as far as my brother's day to day driving them to and from school and taking care of them.
> ... And be praised whenever a diaper is changed or I fetch the little one from school.
I may be calling names now, but maybe this is an unnecessary "oldschool" meme that should already be forgotten. In my country (Estonia), I don't see dads actually being praised for every small childcare chore they courageously complete. Nobody does that, really. It's more like a meme that e.g. feminists love to bring about and keep alive in Facebook or elsewehere, thus showing an ongoing conflict between men and women (or -- being a man vs being a woman, with women actually as the superior sex or side). Let it fade away finally, for god's sake, and let dads quietly do their thing.
Source: first-hand experience as a primary caregiver for our children for several years, while the mom was working full time. It was not really an optimal scenario in terms of sharing economical responsibility within a family (it did raise conflicts at times), but I liked "doing stuff" with both children, and never expected any direct admiration from society, etc. Luckily, I also didn't get almost any of this. :) I just did my thing as a dad, got children to kindergarten and then back home, etc, and those were some beautiful times in this sense.
I'm in Hong Kong, fathers do get praised for childcare chores but it also comes with a downside. Despite being very active in my school PTA, being one of the only fathers being a "Class Parent", and spending a lot more time at my son's school, whenever my son is hurt the reflex they have is to always call the mother.
They praise dads for being involved because they don't see it as normal and as they don't see it as normal, they always think that the mother is somehow the person to contact in emergencies. I'd much rather not be praised for every little thing and for people here to trust in a father's competence.
You can hire a nanny. I know there's stigma there, too, but I know some "career women" who do this and it works fine. If you're that motivated (and your interests are lucrative enough), you can pull it off.
I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. It's your choice whether you want to spend your life being envious about cherry-picked parts of other people's lives, or whether you learn to appreciate and enjoy the things you do have. This cherry picking is the exact poison that social media delivers, making people depressed the world over. I guess men and women have always felt it about each other. The big difference is that men cannot have what women have, but women can have at least some of what men have.
None of that stuff really seems that difficult or time consuming. I think the danger of being in the position of a stay-at-home mom is that your partner can abandon you at any time and leave you with the full burden and no financial support
Is some of that a "take it or leave it" attitude? Yes, but both people have that in every relationship, or else they should.
I think if you're in a relationship that's primarily defined by what you don't want to do, you should get out of it as quickly as possible.
If I ever find myself writing extended essays about why I'd love to have a wife like me, and I truly hated making her breakfast, I would bail.
So it seems like what you want is not a wife, but money
On the one hand, she's right that most people would want a wife and she gives a reasonable overview of why. That is why men generally want wives. The wives bring a lot to the table.
If you do the same exercise for husbands, generally most people would also want husbands. The men also bring a lot to the table. Relationships happen when everyone benefits.
Now if she's coming at this from a place of mutual joy and satisfaction then this essay is a pretty good summary of what men are probably looking for in a wife. But I see "instant classic ... [in a] feminist magazine" get the impression that it is probably being interpreted as wives shouldn't have to bring all the things men want to a relationship.
Yeah sure. I can agree with that. They shouldn't have to. Indeed, they don't. As we've discovered in the 1970s-2025 window they can renegotiate the social contract to a large extent. But I'm not really on board with what contribution the essay is supposed to have had beyond highlighting things what men like in women.
We're heavy in the diminishing returns here - if it hasn't even inverted already.
New tools and approaches will have to be found to further push these goals.
This - evidently - worked and works, but there are trade-offs to it.
Specifically, it is zero-sum, which eventually led to the gender war we have now. Since the defenses have been (for the most part) broken down, a modern pivot would likely move towards more unification again, I guess.
Giving birth is a woman job. Breastfeeding is a woman's job. Replacing breast milk with something else might be one of the causes of allergies and other ill effects (I'm guessing).
To me it looks like women want to be compensated for the unpaid work of birthing children and taking care of them during their upbringing. No one fucking likes unpaid work. It's not right.
For me this if the current feminism and I do support it.
I do not believe the conspiracy part, but I do also believe that this decoupling will happen eventually. It seems like the logical conclusion of the trajectory we're on. Leaving biological reality behind in the pursuit of individualism.
It might be a good thing, but we might also find that we were not ready for the total freedom from said biological reality. But that is to be said about a lot of things, SV is pushing towards.
But maybe we will also see stuff crashing down in the near-ish future, and then, pondering about the "end of biological reality" will seem like unreal hallucinations.
___
Hmm. The LLM I've been feeding this comment section pointed me at the Universe 25 Experiment. I've never heard of that before.
But having to be the incubator means I am saddle with the full brunt of the responsibility and expectation once the baby is born. I go from woman to mother. And with it comes judgement and duties, and goes freedom and care-free living.
I want to be a father so I can raise a kid, provide, teach and impart to a little slice of my own genes. And be praised whenever a diaper is changed or I fetch the little one from school.
But alas I was born with a womb, a sexual attraction to men, and the drive for a high-impact career. The three seem incompatible.
Being a father comes with its own responsibilities and subjection to judgment by the community. The phrase "deadbeat dad" is in the common vernacular, but you rarely hear about "deadbeat moms" (trust me, they exist).
> full brunt of the responsibility and expectation once the baby is born
This is simply not true. If this were true, child support laws and requirements would not exist.
You actually don't have full responsibility once the child is born. Even then, you can give the child up for adoption.
You do have something that men don't have, which is full control over whether a birth happens in the first place. Men don't have this.
Both parents have the same responsibility to their kids, to do the absolute best for them, and we should fight back against outdated cultural norms that assume that mothers are the default parent, and that fathers "babysit" their own children.
This can be resolved by choosing a better man as a partner, one that is supportive and willing to be an equal partner. I understand finding someone that fulfills that as well as this person also being someone you're attracted to and compatible with socially is challenging, but I have seen relationships like this before so I know it's possible.
And then there's the fact of life that other stuff needs to be taken care of. Trash still needs to be taken out, groceries bought, etc further pushing you towards the stuff outside of parenting.
This can hardly be resolved with money. We could hire nannies, get the top nursery, whatever. It would even be cost-efficient if it let mom work. However, the kid doesn't want to be without his mom and much more so she doesn't want to be away from him for a longer time! Even with me 4-6 hours is about it.
Does it, or is is a complaint about the patriarchy? I don't see any part of the OP comment that seems misandrist or reducing the role that engaged fathers play.
I am a father of two wonderful kids. I do more drop offs than my wife, I changed just as many diapers / handled sick care, I handle more of the nighttime routines and give each kid a 10 minute back rub every night while my wife lays in bed (9 years and counting for my eldest) and cook more than my wife. She does clean more than me, folds more laundry, prepare their lunches, organizes their after care and play dates and babysitters more. She also worked harder when the kids were 0-6 months than I did for sure.
I begrudge her for none of what I do “more”. It’s hard work but I love being with my kids and my wife works her tail off running her business. We have a great balance and I feel lucky. And yet life isn’t perfect and, it being hard work, it’s easy to point fingers instead of focusing on gratitude and real world trade offs (two things the paper and feminism generally lack).
I think it comes down to ambitions. Do you have ambitions to be financially successful, to have a wonderful career or marriage or to be a great parent? Although feminists are loathe to talk of hierarchies for obvious reasons, they nevertheless have their use. So let me hierarchize: I truly have greater ambitions around being a parent than anything else. We also happen to be financially successful (more so because of my wife) but she has greater ambitions around that than I do.
So anyway, I think we are the counter example to your last statement and show that it can be compatible. And many of my friends are similar.
I believe procreation is the highest impact a human can achieve.
The result of 14 billion years of cosmic evolution, a thermodynamic miracle, the waking universe looking back on itself.
Imagine what we can achieve when robots can do the laundry and dishes.
And if it’s not too prying to ask what are your ideal expectations for your partner? How important is their career? What is their ideal role in childrearing?
I don't know why you couldn't be a great father. In the sense you're talking about. I know it would come with the physical baggage (or not, if you adopt?)
A friend I love dearly is raising a 3 year old little girl... she never expected to get pregnant at 42... and she is as much a father as a mother. She lets the girl play in mud puddles while other parents stare, and collect bugs, and go look at art in museums. Absolutely unconcerned with how the world thinks a mom with a 3 year old should behave.
[edit] it did slow my friend's career over the past few years, but, didn't kill it. And she's back to it now. But more importantly... I've never seen anyone love anything as much, even when she says she's frustrated out of her mind. And me, not having kids, I'm a little jealous of that feeling.
[edit2] I'm an uncle, so maybe that's more my speed ... just jumping in for the easy fun parts and teaching the kids new things and being the visiting fireman. But that's not what being a father is, at least as far as my brother's day to day driving them to and from school and taking care of them.
I may be calling names now, but maybe this is an unnecessary "oldschool" meme that should already be forgotten. In my country (Estonia), I don't see dads actually being praised for every small childcare chore they courageously complete. Nobody does that, really. It's more like a meme that e.g. feminists love to bring about and keep alive in Facebook or elsewehere, thus showing an ongoing conflict between men and women (or -- being a man vs being a woman, with women actually as the superior sex or side). Let it fade away finally, for god's sake, and let dads quietly do their thing.
Source: first-hand experience as a primary caregiver for our children for several years, while the mom was working full time. It was not really an optimal scenario in terms of sharing economical responsibility within a family (it did raise conflicts at times), but I liked "doing stuff" with both children, and never expected any direct admiration from society, etc. Luckily, I also didn't get almost any of this. :) I just did my thing as a dad, got children to kindergarten and then back home, etc, and those were some beautiful times in this sense.
They praise dads for being involved because they don't see it as normal and as they don't see it as normal, they always think that the mother is somehow the person to contact in emergencies. I'd much rather not be praised for every little thing and for people here to trust in a father's competence.